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Archer
Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Points: 2,129
Posts: 979
Race: Shadow
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| Nanara wrote: |
| Archer, you're deliberately missing the point. The point isn't really about what's right, it's about the founding principals and the main view that we're aiming for with this community and that is Respect. |
Then you are missing my point.
It was completely disgusting, IMO - not disrespectful, not underhanded, not borderline rule breaking, but flat out DISGUSTING - for someone who was obviously ill and obviously in distress to be treated like that.
If he was some jerk trolling, it would be against the rules to be unpleasant but I wouldn't give a damn. If he was some idiot who needed some serious help, then maybe badgering him would have worked and maybe it wouldn't. But that was NOT the case. Some seriously ill guy comes on and basically says, in as many words, "I am seriously ill" and the response is for people to niggle at him and try to argue the point and have absolutely no compassion whatsoever.
Flat out DISGUSTING.
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:47 pm
_________________
Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
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Luinbariel
Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Points: 4,204
Posts: 4711
Race: I dunno, lol
Location: Canada
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We're trying to minimize this happening again to ANYone, whether they are obviously ill or not; the fact that this happened to Mologi is sad and one of the main resons for this letter, and the main point of this thread.
We have and will continue to send out the warnings and follow up on them as needed.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:01 pm
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Ione
Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2008
Points: 313
Posts: 710
Location: United States
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I must have been really oblivious the last few days to miss this thread @_@ sorry about that. Anyways, read and understood! ^-^
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:44 pm
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Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.-Sarah Williams
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Nanara
Director
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Points: 5,482
Posts: 6299
Race: Polymorphic something
Location: New Zealand
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| Archer wrote: |
It was completely disgusting, IMO - not disrespectful, not underhanded, not borderline rule breaking, but flat out DISGUSTING - for someone who was obviously ill and obviously in distress to be treated like that.
If he was some jerk trolling, it would be against the rules to be unpleasant but I wouldn't give a damn. If he was some idiot who needed some serious help, then maybe badgering him would have worked and maybe it wouldn't. But that was NOT the case. Some seriously ill guy comes on and basically says, in as many words, "I am seriously ill" and the response is for people to niggle at him and try to argue the point and have absolutely no compassion whatsoever.
Flat out DISGUSTING. |
I agree with you Archer. And as Luin said, it's one of the things that prompted this letter so that it doesn't happen again.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:16 pm
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shanoxilt
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Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Points: 49
Posts: 75
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When I consider the lack of, and active discouragement of, critical thought here, I begin to think that I have completely wasted my time. 
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:01 am
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Vox et praeterea nihil. (A voice and nothing more.)
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Luinbariel
Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Points: 4,204
Posts: 4711
Race: I dunno, lol
Location: Canada
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I'm sorry you feel that way shanoxilt; we're trying our best here, but if you feel there's something to be worked on, perhaps you could bring it up with us as constructive criticism and we can work something out.
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:34 pm
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Nanara
Director
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Points: 5,482
Posts: 6299
Race: Polymorphic something
Location: New Zealand
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All the letter was about was to please stop mangling our new members... that's all it was it about. It wasn't about stop thinking, it wasn't about stop questioning.. it was about a request to PLEASE STOP MANGLING OUR NEWBIES!
Newbies are often scared and shy enough as it is without people ripping them to tiny little shreds with so many questions and so many veiled "I don't believe you"s that they're overwhelmed and feel totally threatened and attacked. It's not fair and many don't seem to understand the effect of their actions on our newbies.
What happened to our welcoming, safe and friendly community?
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:40 pm
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Luinbariel
Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Points: 4,204
Posts: 4711
Race: I dunno, lol
Location: Canada
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I agree with 'ara... it was never a call to stop asking questions. NOT AT ALL.
I LIKE the questions that people ask here, I LIKE how things here are generally not simply accepted as they may be in other places and how we can generally have discussions about what we feel, why, etc etc etc.
What I do NOT like is to see new members who are obviously not comfortable with this happening be continually harassed. This does NOT mean that you can't ask them questions; it means you might wanna give them some time to acclimate before you get into it.
Like the letter says, we've all been in the newbie shoes at some point, and I'm sure if we try hard enough we can all remember what it's like to go out on a limb and pour it all out. So, what we're asking you to do is to continue being your normal selves BUT to recognize that it may take some time for them to be comfortable answering some of the questions that we ask regularly.
So no, no one wants you to stop asking them, no one wants you to stop thinking or to stop critical thought. Not at all. We're asking you to use your common sense and to stop shredding people to pieces when they are obviously uncomfortable. Give them time, and if they are comfortable, they'll open up with it.
You can try asking the same questions differently, or making it known that, if the person you are asking is not comfortable with it, they don't have to answer. You can STILL do this while making it known that you have questions about them, their theories and beliefs, and NOT destroy someone.
Kay?
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:06 pm
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Oblivian
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Points: 386
Posts: 1030
Race: Were
Location: Sweden
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I was nice, I still get my head shoved down the drain, apparently.
I'm not speaking what's going through my mind, I'm making an effort.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:07 am
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If something works, stick with it -
- when everything works, panic.
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Seraphyna
Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Points: 1,421
Posts: 1343
Race: Polymorphic Angel
Location: United States
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I'm with Oblivian. I really am doing my best at diplomacy...even if the little voice in the back of my head screams "OMG that person should be smacked upside the head with a two-by-four" (no that isn't aimed at anyone in particular).
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:53 am
_________________
*Everything I post comes with a built-in "I believe." It's annoying having to restate that fact over and over again. What I post is a reflection of personal belief. Nothing more.*
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Wraith
Director, Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Points: 1,564
Posts: 946
Location: United States
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-_-
This whole situation is getting quite rediculous, and not just because of the members, but the newbies as well.
This is not a daycare center. Let us all please take a deep breath and stop blowing things out of proportion.
Please?
And no, for the love of the gods, this is NOT addressed to anyone in particular. Actually, I should listen to my own advice....
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:04 am
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Luinbariel
Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Points: 4,204
Posts: 4711
Race: I dunno, lol
Location: Canada
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My god people, for the last time THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR!!!
There is no reason why people should be getting so up in arms over this and taking it all so personally. IF we have a problem with you specifically WE WILL TELL YOU.
Like Wraith said, this is not a daycare.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:27 am
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Mike (Clodaus)
Founder, Director, Forum Administrator
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Posts: 3292
Location: United States
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Well now that everything was said that I was going to get off my chest (some of it in exact words *nudge*  ):
Some members (defiantly not all) seem to be operating under the misconception that questioning, acceptance and critical thought/evaluation cannot co-exist. Let me propose the following example:
Mr. Oreo joins The Community claiming that he has a delicious creamy center. That is his claim - some will believe him, some will not. Whether or not the claim is true is not up for anyone to decide. Because this is a scientific and objective community, Mr. Oreo may need to provide some evidence of his curious filling. If he is unable to provide it, he may be attacked for his claim.
The problem here is two-fold. One - it's okay to be sceptical, but not blind. Mr. Oreo may or may not be telling the truth - so it's okay to question, but keep an open mind. However, it is still not okay to attack Mr. Oreo even though he cannot provide evidence to support his claim, because Mr. Oreo may in fact be telling the truth and, more importantly, Mr. Oreo (with his beliefs aside) may actually have a delicious, white, creamy interior.
In the above situation, we are protecting Mr. Oreo from being attacked because nobody is to say he is wrong when there is no evidence to the contrary. At the same time, we are defending the members in that they have a right to question Mr. Oreo's claims (in fact, we discourage claims that cannot be backed up in some form). Yet still, we are preserving exploration and critical thought by giving the right to question. To evaluate. To gather information and explore the topic.
Does making a claim you cannot back up encourage critical thought? Yes - but again, discouraged.
Does questioning such a claim encourage critical thought and discussion? Yes.
Does attacking somebody for questioning your beliefs? No.
Does attacking somebody for believing in something that you yourself do not? No.
Does the evaluation of a claim equate to an attack on the individual? No, not if phrased properly.
Does Mr. Oreo deserve a chance to become a member of our community rather than being sent off by ruthless, verbal assaults? Absolutely.
So relax, take a deep breath, and keep your statements in line. Who knows - maybe someday Mr. Oreo will provide such evidence and show you, "Oh, I was wrong - he really does have a delicious center." Maybe Mr. Oreo will become a celeberty worldwide and known for the fact that was once doubted. And maybe he will be delicious with milk.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:57 am
_________________
If a theory doesn't raise an eyebrow, then it's not a theory.
The content of my posts may not reflect my personal beliefs.
"...Put it inside them; men and women will never think of looking for it there..." ~The Secret of Life
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Miniar
Ardent Defender
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Points: 779
Posts: 1187
Race: Rakshasa + Elf Halfbreed
Location: Iceland
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The thing is, many times when I sit down and write down questions, meaning them in an air of curiocity combined with the basic respect I show every person I do not know for I can not judge whether or not they are full of **** 'til after a back-and-forth communication has taken place for a while (and anyone claiming otherwise is usually putting more faith in their own empathic skills than is entirely advisable) the person who I ask questions of replies with crying "Abuse! Attack! Why am I being SINGLED OUT!" sort of a reply and Immediately, regardless of who asked questions, in what air, how they were worded or any such thing, the person crying "wolf!" (no pun intended) gets all the protection moderating teams can offer.
It's more like this;
Mr. Oreo; "I have a delicious creamy filling!"
me; "How have you come to this conclusion? and delicious to whom?" (As everyone has different taste and I personally think Oreos are totally overrated!)
Mr. Oreo; "How dare you question my deliciousness! I thought this was a friendly community! Why are you all attacking me!!!!!!!!!"
Mod; "Leave Mr. Oreo alone you meanies!"
This sort of thing tends to me feeling like a) The mods see every cry for help as proof of attack, b) The mods haven't actually read the whole interaction, c) The mods see asking questions as bad, d) This community has become yet another "lets all hug each other and tell each other how awesome and special we all are" in a way that feels like a class for mentally handicapped children and that alone makes me want to just up and leave because there's nothing to be found in the community other than "me too" replies to "I feel special" posts, or e) All of the above.
This thread only serves to enhance that kind of sensations these reactions/interactions trigger. Yes, I am aware that the original post said that the community supports intellectual debate as well as being open and welcoming, but it seems sometimes that we are "expected" to be so open and so welcoming that we forgo any question what so ever 'til the person who we wish to question has been a member for a minimum of 6 months and has become so grounded in the forum (and their beliefs) that they'd be less likely to take their beliefs elsewhere.
There is one huge side effect to this that shouldn't be forgotten. This pattern leaves the forum extremely vulnerable to any troll what so ever that could come in here, spout whatever nonsense they feel like, and when people point out the gigantic, gaping flaws in the post, that they'll be told to "back off" and "be nice" to the newcomer (troll) and all the troll has to do to gain the undying sympathy and protection of the moderating team is to act hurt/insulted.
Nevermind that asking older members to disregard the massive amounts of misinformation and/or delusion sometimes posted is an insult to them, their intelligence, and their integrity.
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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:06 pm
_________________ 
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Mike (Clodaus)
Founder, Director, Forum Administrator
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Points: ---
Posts: 3292
Location: United States
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| Miniar wrote: |
| The thing is, many times when I sit down and write down questions, meaning them in an air of curiocity combined with the basic respect I show every person I do not know for I can not judge whether or not they are full of **** 'til after a back-and-forth communication has taken place for a while (and anyone claiming otherwise is usually putting more faith in their own empathic skills than is entirely advisable) the person who I ask questions of replies with crying "Abuse! Attack! Why am I being SINGLED OUT!" sort of a reply and Immediately, regardless of who asked questions, in what air, how they were worded or any such thing, the person crying "wolf!" (no pun intended) gets all the protection moderating teams can offer. |
No, it's not like that at all. Sometimes I wish some of the staff conversations were public - perhaps one day that will be considered to show you guys how we think.
When we evaluate a situation, we go strictly by the rules. If a member is crying "attack" then of course, we'll look at the thread - but from then on, the evaluation is based off of the facts in accordance with the rules. If we find that the offending post really was aggressive, we tell the poster to back off. However, if we find that the person crying "attack" is just being a baby, then we say so (in less offensive terms).
If a member joins and believes they're being attacked then they're not - oh well. They're being overly sensitive and therefore this community is defiantly not for them. They're welcome to stay if they can grow up and deal with it, or they can leave and find some other community that will agree with them on every point they make and encourage their own personal reality. But we do not - NOT - encourage that. If you feel this is the case, Minar, please point out a few threads that do this and, should we see that you are correct, we'll be more than happy to correct it.
The staff does not always see eye to eye on everything - we argue eachothers points all the time. Therefore, this is always brought up. One staff member may say, "Oh, this member is stating they're being attacked" while another, upon evaluating the situation, may say "No - they're just overreacting". In fact there have been countless cases of this.
We are trying to strike the best balance we can, which our members have a difficulty seeing. Therefore we stick strictly to the rules. If they're violated, then they're violated. If not, they're not. No favorites. If one of the staff members is afraid to tell a member to shut the hell up, another will be more than happy to say it.
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:37 am
_________________
If a theory doesn't raise an eyebrow, then it's not a theory.
The content of my posts may not reflect my personal beliefs.
"...Put it inside them; men and women will never think of looking for it there..." ~The Secret of Life
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